Conquer Mount Mulcherest or memorize the state capitals?
In face of the -- pardon me -- frakking absurd claim from a throne of authority* that puppies of eight weeks of age ought to be "error-free" housebroken, and trained to sit, down, and roll over, we here at Brandywine Bone 'n' Breakfast opt out of the Puppy Einstein / No Pup Left Behind hype. We are not in favor of eliminating recess from the puppy curriculum so that we can cram in another half-hour of multiplication tables and maybe up our scores on the next round of standardized tests.
Think of it as a Steiner preschool for puppies. Plenty of outdoor play time, access to natural materials in preference to plastics, simple toys (a knotted flannel rag is a favorite), opportunities to learn by imitation, and inclusion in adult activities, such as tagging along to help feed the goats.
I like how fluidly the pups segue their interactions -- amongst themselves, with their mother, with the other adult dogs, the human visitor, and their physical environment. (Including the truly impressive tunnel project they are collectively executing under that landscape boulder.)
When I raised litters at our former home -- a suburban tract house with a large fenced yard -- I put out lots of interesting obstacles for the pups to explore.
Notsomuch here. The topography, landscaping, livestock, shrubberies both domestic and freelance -- all fill that developmental niche much more organically than my old tires and wicket walks and ramps and puppy teeters. Bonus, there are periodic appearances by chickens. Very fast chickens.
There are some play objects on what is now known as the poopdeck -- a ramp, wobble disk, cardboard boxes, tug toys -- but now that they have unrestricted access to the outdoors most of the day, they spend little time there.
In a little over a week they'll be starting off in their new homes, perfectly ready to learn sit, down, and I before E except after C in a matter of minutes.
What they can learn best now is how to be happy, relaxed, bold, curious baby dogs in a world where the affairs of big dogs and big humans continue in their presence.
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*NB: An "authority" who, as near as I can determine, has neither bred nor raised a single litter of puppies. Ever.
He said **what**????
ReplyDeleteI did not believe anyone said it (but you have never lied), then I went to the link, then read the thing three times, and then I quickly looked for a rational answer: A bad editor, a ghost writer, a medical condition such as alcoholism or senility, a computer hack.
** Sigh **
What can I say? Not a thing. There it is -- theory meets fact like the Titanic meets the ice.
P
Near the beginning, I love how Ernie (I think) is playing a bit too rough (in Cole's opinion, at least I think that is Cole?) and he is disciplined for it -- and then returns to play with them, but quite a bit toned down.
ReplyDeleteyou know, I glanced over that article a while back and totally missed that line about "show basic obedience such as sit...." What, reallY?? I want to sit back and watch that, I really do.....
ReplyDeleteThis just got to me:
ReplyDelete"A good breeder wouldn't let you leave with a puppy if you didn't know how to handle an adult dog, which your puppy will be in just a few months. Make sure the breeder teaches you how to handle and train her adult dogs."
a) I'm sure a "good breeder" can tell anyone's dog experience by the time they're ready to take home a pup.
b) If I were to ever breed a litter, my rule would still stand: ain't no one but ME and VERY FEW trusted people would work my dogs. That's the last thing my dogs need, is some stranger grabbing their leash and telling them what to do.
I doubt this person has ever OWNED dogs, much less trained any of them.
Heather, I'm curious as to something and would like your (and others, is possible) thoughts:
Formal puppy preschool classes--is it a time for learning how to be a dog, basic manners (not commands), handling exercises that lay the foundation for exams and grooming, teaching that mouthing and inappropriate chewing (and other puppy behaviors) are Not Good Ideas, stuff that will mentally prepare it to start obedience, etc...or is it the time to start doing what this "breeder" says, sit, down, heel, etc? I've seen both ways, and am a little leery of the ones that throw them into obedience routines right off the bat.
Via --
ReplyDeleteWhen I run puppy classes, we do three things -- handling tolerance stuff (including handling by strangers and no mouthing/biting), monitored and narrated puppy play-time (so the owners are learning as we all watch our pups interact with each other and with one of my canine training assistants) and basic commands and manners, such as sit, stay, come, down, leash walking.
An hour-long class is certainly too long to hit an 8-14 week-old puppy with "obedience" continually. They get a chance to rip a little during playtime, and a chance to be passive during handling exercises as well as "lecture" time.
Patrick, this notion of making the pups learn the first and second declension and their multiplication tables in the crib is the latest club being wielded by the operant conditioning zombies.
ReplyDeleteThe same keyboard trainers who love to invoke their superior humane treatment of dogs whilst savagely slashing away at any human who dares to disagree with their cult gurus and sacred scriptures are now presenting this ridiculous fantasy as a way of identifying breeders who have swallowed the kool-aide.
The OC ideology is not about the best way to develop, raise, or train a dog -- it's about micromanagement. The desire to control every whisker-twitch on a fellow creature, while simultaneously congratulating oneself for being so virtuous that one does not employ "force."
When cornered on this -- produce the video of the five or ten puppies in the whelping box, sitting, downing, rolling over -- we find that they do not mean trained in the way that you or I or other English speakers of ordinary competence employ the word.
They mean that each puppy has been induced to follow a bit of food in front of his nose so that he can be thoughtlessly lured into those positions. Nothing to do with commands, attentiveness, or understanding.
I can do that in five minutes with each of these pups. But why? It isn't the groundwork for anything useful or developmentally appropriate.
As I began to watch the video at 3:45 am this day - in the corner I saw a German Shepherd snout and my aged mind asked itself "is that Lily or Mel???" - then my thought processes caught up to my memories and I cried.
ReplyDeleteLov, Dad
Perhaps a goo thing to do with my future pile of mulch/wood chips. SO nice to see them all again, so much more "substantial" than at 5.5 weeks.
ReplyDeleteDid Garret/Sagan have a good time on Mulch mountain?
Why we send our child to a Steiner school!
ReplyDeleteHmm, much as I'm loving your approach to puppy-raising, I think you're going a bit off the deep end in your attack on another dog trainer here, (while carefully not naming him, which strikes me as passive aggressive, though I can hope it was more to avoid having his name appear here on search engines).
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, you've misrepresented the context of the 'potty training' bullet point in the Dogstar article:
No one (not even the strawmen, er, I mean the OC sheeple/ideologists/extremists/zombies) expects 8 week old puppies to be "error free" in their house-training in the manner of an adult dog. "Error free" means it's the human's job to either take them outside often enough they never have a chance to potty on the rug, or provide a litter box or other place for them to go, etc.
If you accept the premise that puppies shouldn't be pissing all over the carpet at 8 weeks old, than you really don't have any disagreement to freak out over.
As for taking exception to the advice for strangers to "handle the parents", or for a breeder to demonstrate "basic obedience" in a young puppy, I'm not sure why this is such a strange concept. This article wasn't written for YOU, or your prospective puppy-buyers, who will likely be very dog-savvy and looking for working/farm dogs. It's not bad advice for a person looking for a pet to look for a breeder who's willing to demonstrate a bit of luring or allow someone to take their adult dog for a walk around the yard.
Nothing in the article is worth the extreme scorn you throw at it.
really nice to see Rosie with her tail up and happily playing with her kids. In the last vid she looked like she was working hard on weening, and was worried about getting worried...
ReplyDeleteI think you're going a bit off the deep end in your attack on another dog trainer here, (while carefully not naming him, which strikes me as passive aggressive, though I can hope it was more to avoid having his name appear here on search engines).
ReplyDeleteOr, you know, I could simply be dismissing a stupid pronouncement, with citation, but without feeling the need to "get personal."
At any rate, you've misrepresented the context of the 'potty training' bullet point in the Dogstar article
I haven't "represented" context at all. I've provided a link to the actual context, in its entirety.
As for taking exception to the advice for strangers to "handle the parents",
Well, Mr. Dunbar's actual words were "Make sure the breeder teaches you how to handle and train her adult dogs," but you will note that I made no mention of this strange advice, though some others who commented here did notice it.
or for a breeder to demonstrate "basic obedience" in a young puppy, I'm not sure why this is such a strange concept.
Because eight-week-old puppies living with their littermates are not appropriate subjects for "obedience training."
This article wasn't written for YOU, or your prospective puppy-buyers, who will likely be very dog-savvy and looking for working/farm dogs. It's not bad advice for a person looking for a pet to look for a breeder who's willing to demonstrate a bit of luring or allow someone to take their adult dog for a walk around the yard.
It is especially terrible advice for someone who isn't very dog savvy, because it presents an impossible standard for them that they may not understand is impossible. They will NEVER find an eight-week-old puppy who is "obedience trained" as an ordinary and sensible person understands that term. Nor is it a developmentally appropriate exercise for such young pups. So really good breeders who actually understand development are labeled negligent by this ridiculous throwaway pronouncement.
It's rather like telling a nervous parent that she must reject any preschool who can't show her that the three-year-olds are reading and doing long division.
And good breeders are also not too happy about being the latest targets of the PROC partisans. Tiring of browbeating effective trainers and normal dog owners, they now turn on horrid dog breeders who don't spend six hours a day with a clicker from the time the pups are crawling. (Can we click them to a nipple, perhaps?)
Yes, this is happening, apparently as a result of this single-page of bad (and very incomplete) puppy-buying advice.
The corresponding sound (but still incomplete) advice would be: Make sure that you can visit the breeder, the area where the pups are kept in the house is clean and not a wire floor, the dam and, if present, the sire, are both dogs you would wish to own and can interact with -- not locked up during your visit -- and the pups are extremely responsive to human beings and show no fear.
No reason to apply one's own training ideology as a shibboleth for competent breeding and puppy-raising.
Finally, the bad advice dishonors real training, because what Mr. Dunbar really "means" (according to his interpreters) is a debasement of the word. A puppy brainlessly following a food lure is not "trained."
Nothing in the article is worth the extreme scorn you throw at it.
I believe my attitude could be more accurately characterized as "dismissive" with perhaps "mocking" thrown in there, because that's generally how I roll. I am not responsible for the scornful reactions of others, who all appear to be capable of reading for themselves.
Rod, it's true, Rosie has visibly relaxed and is really enjoying her puppies this week. She's still nursing them occasionally. And comes running like the wrath of Hera when one of them is in distress. She's doing a lot of teaching, and is having fun with it.
ReplyDeleteI got to thinking about your "authority" who has apparently never had any first-hand experience with breeding or raising a litter.
ReplyDeleteHe probably thinks nothing of giving advice for that with which he has never experienced, similar to how many trainerettes out there will give advice based only on second-hand knowledge and hearsay.
They have never bred dogs, raised puppies (admittedly, neither have I), learned about the proper role of training collars (including fit, use, and misuse), worked a dog in a high-distraction area with no bribes, called a dog off a chase that could have ended badly...the list goes on.
I'd say it's too bad, really, that he's stooped to this level, but the sad fact is that he and the people who follow him have been doing this for a long time and I just shouldn't be surprised. That breeders are, as you note, the latest target of the PROC crowd, is just another low for them.
Suzy, can I ask what you look for in a breeder, and what you expect a breeder to do with you in terms of requests and whatnot that are outlined on this site? How have you evaluated the litter to determine which puppy is best for you? Were your expectations different before you read this "authority's" advice?
Viatecio, like Dunbar, my interest in dogs lies more in shelter work and rescue and less in breeding, so I've never tried to pick out a puppy from a breeder. I suppose if I ever did, it would be for some kind of purpose-bred sporting dog for agility or disk and much of Dunbar's advice would apply.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why people think Dunbar has to breed X number of litters before he's allowed to give advice about dog breeders. Experience isn't everything. In fact many times it's easy to mislead yourself if all you rely on is your own limited experience, even if you seem successful. I'll take science (aka the accumulated knowledge of many people over many years of systematic research) over a single person's limited "experience" any day.
So, you who have never done a thing (chosen a puppy) are endorsing the authoritative advice from someone else who has never done a thing (raised a litter) because hey, what you gonna believe, your lyin' eyes, or me?
ReplyDeletePlease direct us to the "science" that indicates in any way that the fantasy puppy who is "obedience trained" prior to the age of 56 days will be a more satisfactory companion dog than a reality-based puppy who is well-raised and not messed with in this curiously intrusive manner.
I mean real, empirical science, not the misapplication of some study of naked mole rats, nor an unreviewed editorial in some obscure journal penned by someone with a white coat acquired from her cousin, the Clinique salesgirl.
Also, I was unaware that Mr. Dunbar had done rescue work. Does he transport dogs on weekends? Foster dogs in his home? Nip on down to the pound three times a week to walk dogs and train them to sit at the gate? Perform in-person / phone / email consults with a rescue's foster people? Evaluate dogs for placement? Do reference and home checks on adopters?
ReplyDeleteBueller? Anyone?
This attitude of early training is more widespread than I thought. Had a performance home for one of my puppies complain that their 8 wk old wasn't trained to walk on a lead! These babies were raised with tons of exposure to new things, people and age appropriate challenges. Pre-housetraining was facilitated by keeping their living space immaculate and providing a separate place to eliminate. They were heading out the dog door at 7 wks. Nail trimming and grooming had long been accepted by all. But were they trained? Hell no! Why would they be, they're just babies. Tina
ReplyDeleteJust to set the record straight, I have neither bred a litter, raised puppies from birth, nor chosen one out a litter.
ReplyDeleteYet.
However, my experience with good breeders indicates that obedi--er, lure bribing is not really what makes the adult dog or adult dog's manners. OK, a lot of the show breeders I've watched stack their puppies starting at about 6-7 weeks to determine which ones are fit for their glorified beauty pageants, but any prospective show buyer will hardly expect a flawless free-stack at that age that will wow the judges. Bitework is developed in some sporting puppies or those meant for police/military work, but I'd hardly expect a solid OUT or anything of the sort. Rosie was probably scenting out various human stress scents (or even cadaver) when the rest of her littermates went home, right?
So sure, I may not have a say since I have never bred a dog, but I can have an opinion based on what I've seen, learned and experienced personally in regards to puppies. That opinion, similar to my other ones that contradict those of "experts" and "authorities," is contrary to what I read here by Dr. Dunbar. If I was interested in a breeder who followed these recommendations, I would walk away clean and continue my search.
Tina, yes.
ReplyDeleteLet's say it takes 20 minutes a day for a week to leash-break a puppy. (I think it takes less time, but then, I do not breed bulldogs or huskies or Jack Russell terrorists.)
Let's also agree that this is not a feat that should be attempted with a pup less than seven weeks old.
And that a litter of retrievers, ES, many hounds, German shepherds, etc, will often have a dozen members, sometimes more.
So a breeder with a large litter should be spending FOUR HOURS A DAY during the last week that the pups are in her care accomplishing ONE training goal. Why? So that each of the new owners don't have to spend a few minutes a day during the pup's first week with them on this basic training and bonding exercise?
Again, no evidence whatsoever that there is any benefit to pup or new owner from this kind of precocious meddling with a pup's early learning.
I've seen some of these overtrained, lifeless youngsters. Took a conformation class with a bouncy 6 month old Bouvier many years back. The instructor had her 3 Mo puppies trained all right! They stood like little statues,afraid to move, with sad eyes,and invariably lagged on the lead.You know how a dog will lean sideways into the lead to get as far away from the handler as possible? She was not at all happy with me. I refused to correct my puppy for happy bouncing, ignoring it and only rewarding when all four were on the floor. A book I read years ago cautioned " you can take the wiggle/ giggle out of a puppy, but you can never put it back." Tina
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why people think Dunbar has to breed X number of litters before he's allowed to give advice about dog breeders. Experience isn't everything.
ReplyDelete_______
This may not be the right place to post this, but I have decided to take up cosmetic surgery. To be sure, I was an English major in college but that made me a relly relly gud reeder, and I have read a lot about science, studied up on my anatomy and physiology, memorized the names of the facial muscles (and some other ones too!!), purchased all the right equipment.
I even watch one of those surgery shows on the Discovery channel and I think I've got it all figgered out.
Experience, I'm told, isn't everything. Maybe experience isn't even anything at all but surely I should get some. Wanna be my first patient? The operating suite in the garage is all set up...now lay real real still.
Dunbar's "errorless potty training" advice is more about scaring owners into believing that if their pups have any potty accidents at all, the owner is an irredeemable moral failure whose dog will die in a shelter.
ReplyDeleteI have one of those dogs who was not taught to sit because she was supposed to be a show dog. At a year old, It took me a few minutes to teach her the command, and a few days to make her sit bombproof.
I have chosen a puppy from a litter. Silly me, I look for healthy, happy, friendly puppies, clean living conditions, toys--numbers and variety, not any particular kind of toy.
I cannot imagine expecting an eight-week puppy to be leash trained. I'd consider that a worrying sign, and I'd probably head for the hills. A ten-week puppy who had figured out the "sit" game as a way to produce treats and praise, I would view more favorably, but I'd be concerned if it were any more serious than that.
They're babies, well, okay, toddlers at that age. A happy, positive disposition and a friendly attitude toward people are all you want at that point.
Frankly, I find Dunbar a bit creepy.
Lil, I too have one of those "too old to learn" dogs. She was pretty much raised "free range". My brain was jello, best friend dying of bone cancer. When it was over, pup was six months old and had never had a collar or lead on. Oh My! The first time we walked on lead, she acted as if it were perfectly natural. She is three now, has never shown a moments concern or confusion about her job on lead. Of course all those off lead hikes thru the woods probably helped. Jill, any takers? Tina
ReplyDelete